The Points Clusterfuck

@hand of the King... why are we doing this a dumb way with cons when we can do it a way with only pros?

The bank analogy makes a little sense, but for the most part it's dumb since points are a fake currency and if theyre handed out it just means everyone here has more fun. And since I have the highest debt, I wouldn't even be getting points for this, so here comes my unbiased staff opinion:

I dont see how it would harm the site at all to give teams the difference. It would make fighters more competitive, give teams better chances to make championship contenders, like literally nothing goes wrong if people just get some points. Instead everyone owes points and now we have a long drawn out process of having to watch our depth fighters lose fights because teams are paying a debt they don't deserve.

Normally after reading 2100 word essays, I realize the method behind the madness, but this just seems like madness to me. But maybe I'm missing something important? The only thing that even slightly makes sense is the bank argument, which as it sits, is also the worst analogy since we're all playing a game where the objective is fun, and we're not living in the real world where we have to fucking budget and make sure we have money to survive.




TL:DR, kinda:

Why are we making teams lose points over the next few weeks when adding them solves the same exact problems, plus additional problems? Not to mention taking them away causes big problems for several teams.

99% of the time, I think ManMMA is smart af and finds a really good solution, but I think this is the biggest ball drop we have had in my time here. We could have easily turned a shitty situation in to making other members happy.

Lastly, despite who made the original error, I'm the one who discovered it and chose to reveal it to other members of staff. So, I apologize to the teams this has negatively affected. It was not my intention to get all your points taken, and I appreciate you baring with us during this shitty point in time.

The Sandman and I have talked and he knows I'm still not happy with it all - I'm just going to say I still agree with all of this.

The Texas Rattlesnakes

I thought I addressed this, but if people still don't understand I will try to do better.

As you know from our like, 2 months of private staff discussions on this issue, this is very complicated and difficult to explain in words, but I'll try.

I guess before I do another word-essay, The Rocketmen tried to explain this in a voice-message to our private group chat. I'll include that here first, in case it helps people more than my text-based essays, as some people are auditory learners moreso than text-based learners.

Rocketmen Explains The Debt System in Words.m4a (264.63 KB)


And back to text.

Part 1: Fairness
Teams who upgraded 25 points over what they had were given a clear advantage for a stretch of time. During that time, some won titles and Grand Prixs, for which they received additional points, and used said points to make their team better. In essence, they borrowed points, interest-free, from the league, and reaped rewards for those wins.

It makes no sense (logically, or in the context of league-fairness), to then go forward and forgive that debt entirely just by giving everyone extra points. Not unless forgiving that debt includes shit like teams refunding points earned from title wins and Grand Prixs. The loans were taken out (unintentionally), and they were spent. The damage was done. This has been the point that Outback was making. But the solution of giving EVERYONE points just does more to reward the overclocked teams since there is no trade off - there is no penalty. Only rewards from those interest-free loans.

However, with the debt method, it slows the overclocked teams down for a time, allowing others to move forward and catch up. Because, as Outback repeatedly pointed out, the whole time overclocked teams are overclocked, they are still fighting teams while holding an unfair advantage. With the debt method, the overclocked teams are prevented from CONTINUING to level up the fighters that the rest of the untainted teams are forced to fight against, increasing the opportunities of them catching up in the longer term. Otherwise, while an untarnished team is trying to catch up just by spending the bonus points they were gifted, at the same time the overclocked teams are on track using new points to upgrade their currently overclocked fighters even more.

With a cooling period to pay down the debt from the unauthorized loans they took out, other teams can continue to work on their fighters without being obstructed by new upgrades to the overclocked teams.

Part 2: Economics
I agree it would have been more FUN to give everyone 25 points, or even 100 points, and I would honestly love to do that. But every cycle of a ManMMA Era has a stop-date. When too many fighters become capped, there's no where else to go, and we need to reboot. The balance that goes into the economy is about keeping the site fair and balanced, as well as fun and competitive, for as long as possible. These sites do have a natural expiration, and the entire point of my carefully calculated "fictional" economy is to balance out the pacing of all that. Give people time to participate in the race, while at the same time not overrunning the entire racetrack and ruining the game itself by focring a premature reboot, just as people are really having fun with their fighters/teams.

In a sense, as fictional as it is, this is what makes it a completely real economy, though imaginary. We can, and do, have things like inflation. If your salary was 40 points a week, think anyone would trade a GSP for 20 points? So in the same sense, gifting 25 points, regardless of the reason, is HUGE. Here, it just plays into all the complicated reasons that are, as Mike said privately, often just too complicated to describe in words.

I hope that helps clear things up, as I don't do a single major administrative thing on this site on a whim. It's very carefully calculated and discussed over a long period of time to get it fight. We all know the free points would have been the easiest thing for me to do, but doing what is most fair and what is best for ManMMA has always taken precedence over what is easy. It's understandable, but unfortunate, that keeping ManMMA fair for everyone pisses people off, but such is the nature of equity. I just feel fortunate that I've decided not to take a team during this era so I can make these controversial and difficult decisions legitimately free from bias or implication. Even if that means some of the people closest to me, the inner circle if you will, grow angry and stop talking to me for a few days.

I dont know what that means. Additional weight classes? And if that was the case would that not be like five years from now?

@The Sandman: Your "fairness" portion there kinda gets thrown out the window since there's no itemized showing of what & how it happened. We basically just have to take your word for it as to who was affected. Not to mention the fact that whomever was affected by it, lost points they had already been allocated, without any warning, just "Oh, this is what we're doing... If you've had points taken away, too bad; so sad, cuz we're viewing it as a loan." 🙄 A loan we never asked for, nor did we even know it was taking place. So, therefore, it's still not our fault, nor our responsibility, as members, to pick up the shortfall for your mistake. This isn't one of those things that you can just "pass the buck" on Justin. Expecting us to pay back a "loan" that we had no idea we were even incurring in the first place, is complete BS. Let alone the lack of transparency on who was and wasn't affected by it.

Keep in mind I also can't listen to Mike's thing cuz it won't play on my phone either, unfortunately.

And as for teams that clearly benefitted... 🤔 Really?! Interesting... cuz I was clearly I was one of the teams that allegedly "benefitted" from it, by virtue of being stripped of 8 points, but where did I finish in the standings again? 🤷 Yeah, I've sure benefitted a lot when I've gone from 7th in my shortened 1st season, to 9th in season 2 & 12th in season 3. 🙄 What benefits did I really glean out if that exactly? Did my team get better? No. Did I go on a spree of winning a bunch of titles? No, in fact, I lost my only title. Did I even, really, qualify for the GP the last 2 full seasons? Again, no.

So what exactly is your premise & bar for anyone that supposedly benefitted from this?

As far as I'm concerned, we have no debt with you whatsoever because we never entered into any agreement to incur any debt with you. Period. So, no... I, personally, don't agree to paying any sort debt back because I didn't ask for a loan, nor did I accept one; No one did.

Your economics is a load of crap too, quite frankly. There literally is no economy of points, especially with the amount you do give out for one thing or another, or for nothing at all, nor is there any inflation that goes with that either, otherwise our salaries would be 3-4/week and not still only 2/week. 🤷 The way you have it set up, there's only "economics" at play on a case by case basis, and only when it suits you, as in this case, whereby there's suddenly "economics" again cuz you need to attempt to justify stripping people of points you already gave them, instead of owning up to the mistake yourself, and fixing internally, which it was an internal matter. Essentially you're blaming the members for it by saying: "Yeah, we screwed up, but we're make you pay for it anyway cuz you spent the points we gave you.". It doesn't matter that we had absolutely no clue we were "borrowing" anything, cuz you're not owning the mistake yourself as the league, you're just to passing it off as only "Mike's mistake", completely ignoring the fact that he's your staff, which places the onus on you, as the league & the admin, to actually fix it, not punishing the members of the league that had absolutely no idea it was happening. 🤷

That's on you; not the members.

We don't owe you shit! I still refuse to pay it.

I've asked you several times for what I allegedly owe, and you've said nothing nor sent me anything. So, basically, you're full of shit! 🤷