The Sandman
The Mad King
Black Belt (7th Degree)
Posts: 4,682
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Post by The Sandman on Sept 11, 2022 4:58:00 GMT -5
Rather than just addressing one individual at a time, I figured I would post this here for clarity. (And to avoid causing more clutter in the Points thread, thus accidentally increasing the odds another mix-up happens) Some have noticed points missing. Here's what happened in a nutshell. Through no fault of their own, a lot of teams spent a lot of points they did not have. These seemed to primarily be the active teams, due to the nature of how processing upgrades works. The problem seems to have started small and slowly as far back as season 1, and continued through a large portion of season 3. A lot of these overspends ended up cleaning themselves up naturally, or were easily fixed by counting POTNs as already-spent points to help cancel out the debts. But much of the league was still sitting on wide-ranging amounts of debt from having spent points they did not have. The mess left us with 3 options to correct these major overspends: 1) Spend hours and hours researching and no-contesting any fight that may have involved a fighter who was upgraded with points that their team did not have. Based on the time and HEAVY research (like many, many date-stamp checking), this was completely out of the question. 2) Give everyone in the league a lump sum of extra points to zero out the debt the over-spenders. This option was too flawed for 2 major reasons. First, it meant teams that were overclocked were able to have an unfair advantage with no effect or trade-off. This felt unfair to the other teams. Second, it meant several of our more inactive teams would suddenly be given a lump sum of 10-20 points. This felt as though it would give them a random and sudden unfair advantage to open the season. 3) The one we went with. Slowly reducing the points the overspenders have already used (deducting them from things that had no new impact (such as POTN bonuses, game bonuses, and a lot from those giveaway points I handed out etc). This had the smallest impact with the least shock-value of all the options (it's far more palatable to see you have 0 points vs. seeing you have -17 points). In the end, none of these options were great, clean, or simple. Nothing would make anyone happy - least of all those of us who spend many hours a week trying to do our best to make this site run smooth and fair. But it is what it is, it will balance out in a week or so, and then we're back to a normal, level playing field for all. So. Where we are now is we have streamlined and cleaned up a lot of the point allocation processes. We are working together to have more sets of eyes on the points, and posting much less ambiguous processing notations. Under these improved conditions, it's practically impossible for an error of this magnitude to happen ever again. We sincerely apologize for this disaster, and appreciate those of you who have already demonstrated an understanding of this messy situation. If we all continue to demonstrate this respectful understanding, I think once the last remaining in-debt teams get down to about 5 points of debt, I will bring in the second option and give everyone 5 points for clean-up. And as a thank you for your understanding (assuming we keep going down that path). ---------------- Edit: An additional essay-post was included with this post, in conversational context, with additional clarity, transparency and resolution. To help people just seeing this thread now and not wanting to read 3 pages of shit, this link takes you right there, easy-peasy. |
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Post by Lord Byron's Conquistadors on Sept 11, 2022 21:26:18 GMT -5
if teams still owe points why isnt it just showing the minus points like it used to when people would trade points as they got them?? like if i owe points i would rather know how many points i actually owe so i can plan who i can upgrade when and all that so i dont show up some tuesday for upgradin and find i lost all my salary points because of my invisible debt
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The Sandman
The Mad King
Black Belt (7th Degree)
Posts: 4,682
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Post by The Sandman on Sept 12, 2022 5:03:46 GMT -5
I hadn't planned on using salary (except in the cases of staff members, because I like punishing our staff for all the amazing hard work they do). I figured putting up the minus-numbers would be more confusing, since I was trying to clean up the mess as unobtrusively as possible as basically a behind-the-scenes debt paid off by extra bonuses and the like (for belts, points earned from posting on predictions, perhaps prediction wins, game wins, etc). But if people would prefer a clearer, but more obtrusive "-9" points that includes auto-deducting all points earned until debts are clear, that's also fine. Honestly, we are at a point where it's pretty close to hitting that 5 point threshold, so it won't be that much of a thing. Further, if for some reason people want details on what their point-debt was and wants a breakdown of what I have been using to pay it off, PM me. (Note, this will not be a PM to argue about this - the numbers have been triple checked and are accurate - it will be a PM telling you what your point-debt was, what it is, and how we got there). I'll try to get that posted/updated later today. Especially if some kind staffer ( The Texas Rattlesnakes or The Rocketmen) gets a chance to update the points thread before this afternoon. |
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Post by Phoenix FC on Sept 12, 2022 9:04:39 GMT -5
Screw that... You are going to get an argument on this man. 🤷 This whole diatribe was, once again, no explanation at all, except "Oh, sorry... Somebody fucked up on our end, but we're still going to penalize you for it." 🙄
Meanwhile, again, we still have a throng of teams that are still either hoarding points, or are inactive, yet you're penalizing teams that are active and upgrading their fighters. It makes absolutely zero sense. Why aren't you just taking points from those teams to make up the shortfall you & your staff created, instead of penalizing the active teams that are actually doing something around here?
You're overcomplicating an issue again that has a simple fix, and penalizing active teams for your own error. It's bullshit.
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Post by The Texas Rattlesnakes on Sept 12, 2022 9:09:10 GMT -5
we still have a throng of teams that are still either hoarding points I don't really have a say on anything else, but the most points a team has right now is Killing Joke at 23, the second most points a team has is Bullies with 8. |
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Post by Phoenix FC on Sept 12, 2022 9:39:38 GMT -5
we still have a throng of teams that are still either hoarding points I don't really have a say on anything else, but the most points a team has right now is Killing Joke at 23, the second most points a team has is Bullies with 8. Killing Joke is one of those teams. We also had Dogs with 19 points that would've been carried over. It's also not as though there's a limited amount of points to go around since they're fictitious currency. This was YOUR error as staff, not anything we did wrong as members. 🤷 We shouldn't be penalized for YOUR screw up. |
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Post by The Texas Rattlesnakes on Sept 12, 2022 9:41:27 GMT -5
I don't really have a say on anything else, but the most points a team has right now is Killing Joke at 23, the second most points a team has is Bullies with 8. Killing Joke is one of those teams. We also had Dogs with 19 points that would've been carried over. It's also not as though there's a limited amount of points to go around since they're fictitious currency. This was YOUR error as staff, not anything we did wrong as members. 🤷 We shouldn't be penalized for YOUR screw up. Yeah you don't really know shit to be pointing fingers lmao |
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Post by Phoenix FC on Sept 12, 2022 9:51:03 GMT -5
Killing Joke is one of those teams. We also had Dogs with 19 points that would've been carried over. It's also not as though there's a limited amount of points to go around since they're fictitious currency. This was YOUR error as staff, not anything we did wrong as members. 🤷 We shouldn't be penalized for YOUR screw up. Yeah you don't really know shit to be pointing fingers lmao I'm not pointing fingers. 🤷 Your "boss" is the one saying it was a staff error & miscalculation, but active members are the ones getting penalized for it. Oh, and there were also Ferocity's 60 points that were unallocated and frozen too that could've been applied to this as well, but you couldn't be bothered to cuz you'd rather screw active members, again, for your mistake. |
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Post by The Texas Rattlesnakes on Sept 12, 2022 9:52:20 GMT -5
Yeah you don't really know shit to be pointing fingers lmao I'm not pointing fingers. 🤷 Your "boss" is the one saying it was a staff error & miscalculation, but active members are the ones getting penalized for it. Oh, and there were also Ferocity's 60 points that were unallocated and frozen too that could've been applied to this as well, but you couldn't be bothered to cuz you'd rather screw active members, again, for your mistake. You keep saying "your" that's about as finger pointing as it gets. |
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Post by Outback Cyclone on Sept 12, 2022 9:52:49 GMT -5
I'm assuming I didn't lose anything considering I haven't been here very long, so I feel like I'm a neutral party in this whole thing.
Just a thought: what if, instead of taking points away from people from no fault of their own, we take whoever is in the most debt and even everyone out at that?
For instance, say team A is 17 points in debt, team B is 9 points in debt, and team C isn't in debt at all.
Team A gains 0 points and is debt free
Team B gains 8 points and is debt free
Team C gains 17 points and remains debt free
This would even out the advantages gained over the last while and also give teams points to work with and actually be able to afford to upgrade fighters like flyweights and other under-developed fighters.
Even if something was done like the free points and Justin assign the points to various fighters, this still would be a better outcome than penalizing teams for something that was not their fault
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Post by Phoenix FC on Sept 12, 2022 10:03:55 GMT -5
I'm assuming I didn't lose anything considering I haven't been here very long, so I feel like I'm a neutral party in this whole thing. Just a thought: what if, instead of taking points away from people from no fault of their own, we take whoever is in the most debt and even everyone out at that? For instance, say team A is 17 points in debt, team B is 9 points in debt, and team C isn't in debt at all. Team A gains 0 points and is debt free Team B gains 8 points and is debt free Team C gains 17 points and remains debt free This would even out the advantages gained over the last while and also give teams points to work with and actually be able to afford to upgrade fighters like flyweights and other under-developed fighters. Even if something was done like the free points and Justin assign the points to various fighters, this still would be a better outcome than penalizing teams for something that was not their fault What advantages exactly though? I wasn't even a GP eligible team, and was stripped of basically 8 points (6 carry over; 2 from the draft), all because whomever was updating the points thread didn't do it right. 🤷 That's not my fault, nor should it be my problem, or anyone else's for that matter. |
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Post by Outback Cyclone on Sept 12, 2022 10:09:11 GMT -5
I'm assuming I didn't lose anything considering I haven't been here very long, so I feel like I'm a neutral party in this whole thing. Just a thought: what if, instead of taking points away from people from no fault of their own, we take whoever is in the most debt and even everyone out at that? For instance, say team A is 17 points in debt, team B is 9 points in debt, and team C isn't in debt at all. Team A gains 0 points and is debt free Team B gains 8 points and is debt free Team C gains 17 points and remains debt free This would even out the advantages gained over the last while and also give teams points to work with and actually be able to afford to upgrade fighters like flyweights and other under-developed fighters. Even if something was done like the free points and Justin assign the points to various fighters, this still would be a better outcome than penalizing teams for something that was not their fault What advantages exactly though? I wasn't even a GP eligible team, and was stripped of basically 8 points (6 carry over; 2 from the draft), all because whomever was updating the points thread didn't do it right. 🤷 That's not my fault, nor should it be my problem, or anyone else's for that matter. I'm running under the assumption that you and I are not the ones who owe the most. Someone who's got more ranked fighters probably benefited more than us. Say you lost your 8 and I lost for sake of the argument 4 - but someone else lost 24. We're the ones at a disadvantage in this situation, and we should be the ones compensated for it. If someone else did lose 24 in this case, you'd gain 16 comp points and I'd gain 20 comp points - the difference in what we owe vs what said other team lost. It doesn't make sense to me to keep hearing "upgrade your fighters! Upgrade your fighters!" then take points away from people. |
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Post by The Texas Rattlesnakes on Sept 12, 2022 10:20:55 GMT -5
I'm assuming I didn't lose anything considering I haven't been here very long, so I feel like I'm a neutral party in this whole thing. Just a thought: what if, instead of taking points away from people from no fault of their own, we take whoever is in the most debt and even everyone out at that? For instance, say team A is 17 points in debt, team B is 9 points in debt, and team C isn't in debt at all. Team A gains 0 points and is debt free Team B gains 8 points and is debt free Team C gains 17 points and remains debt free This would even out the advantages gained over the last while and also give teams points to work with and actually be able to afford to upgrade fighters like flyweights and other under-developed fighters. Even if something was done like the free points and Justin assign the points to various fighters, this still would be a better outcome than penalizing teams for something that was not their fault What advantages exactly though? I wasn't even a GP eligible team, and was stripped of basically 8 points (6 carry over; 2 from the draft), all because whomever was updating the points thread didn't do it right. 🤷 That's not my fault, nor should it be my problem, or anyone else's for that matter. So you think you shouldn't be charged for points you spent? |
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Post by Phoenix FC on Sept 12, 2022 10:27:50 GMT -5
What advantages exactly though? I wasn't even a GP eligible team, and was stripped of basically 8 points (6 carry over; 2 from the draft), all because whomever was updating the points thread didn't do it right. 🤷 That's not my fault, nor should it be my problem, or anyone else's for that matter. I'm running under the assumption that you and I are not the ones who owe the most. Someone who's got more ranked fighters probably benefited more than us. Say you lost your 8 and I lost for sake of the argument 4 - but someone else lost 24. We're the ones at a disadvantage in this situation, and we should be the ones compensated for it. If someone else did lose 24 in this case, you'd gain 16 comp points and I'd gain 20 comp points - the difference in what we owe vs what said other team lost. It doesn't make sense to me to keep hearing "upgrade your fighters! Upgrade your fighters!" then take points away from people. The point is that no one should owe anything at all since it wasn't our error, and has been made clear that it wasn't our fault. Yet, the 'Grand Pubah' feels that the best way to handle this is to penalize the teams when it was his own staff that screwed it up. We shouldn't be penalized at all for that. |
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Post by Outback Cyclone on Sept 12, 2022 10:32:58 GMT -5
I'm running under the assumption that you and I are not the ones who owe the most. Someone who's got more ranked fighters probably benefited more than us. Say you lost your 8 and I lost for sake of the argument 4 - but someone else lost 24. We're the ones at a disadvantage in this situation, and we should be the ones compensated for it. If someone else did lose 24 in this case, you'd gain 16 comp points and I'd gain 20 comp points - the difference in what we owe vs what said other team lost. It doesn't make sense to me to keep hearing "upgrade your fighters! Upgrade your fighters!" then take points away from people. The point is that no one should owe anything at all since it wasn't our error, and has been made clear that it wasn't our fault. Yet, the 'Grand Pubah' feels that the best way to handle this is to penalize the teams when it was his own staff that screwed it up. We shouldn't be penalized at all for that. The thing is even if no points are removed we still lost fights to fighters who shouldn't be as good as they are. Like my Grand Prix loss - did I lose to fighters that shouldn't have been as good as they are? Should Tuivasa be ranked higher but lost to a fighter that's been upgraded more than allowed? I'm all for live and let live but this just doesn't sit right with me - I'm not saying invalidate all the fights associated but give us the points now that're the difference between them and let us even up immediately. With removed points it's gonna take months if not a year plus for things to even out - I think it should be an immediate course correction. |
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